The followers of Yeshua and Shaul were not called Christians. I am enjoying the discussion and information/opinions/wisdom here. Not the voice of the accuser, Boss Paul the Pharisee, Telling the redeemed people of God About what they used to be. How about you? Pauls athletic references are too pervasive in his letters for him to have shared the antipathy that some Jews felt toward the games. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Then the Paulist Establishment church wont persecute me, but the other Jesus People will know that Im still keeping the faith and not inhaling., What I really need is a short catchy slogan to let my fellow hippies know what is expected of them in the Establishment Church now in 1973, regarding the issue of Paul the Pharisees sins. The false teaching about one rule is the false teaching of the Pharisees of Pauls day, and Paul the Pharisee was pushing this false teaching. But that isnt the only meaning, or even the first and primary meaning. There were at least 2 elements of Paul's training. Gamaliel may or may not have taken over the position when Simon died. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal disease and sickness. Also Gamaliel was apart of the Sanhedrin which were the people that ultimately were the people who decided Jesus fate and persecuted many of the Jews. When Im at the beach with the hip crowd, I wont take a stand in public. He is also quick to associate with gentiles, so he does not have a deep-seated hate for Romans in general as well. So what is the application of this parable? Minhags- customs attached to moses and the oral law to make them valid that were infact against Torah and corrupt. But is it correct to characterize Paul as an ultra-conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view, namely, that Jesus was the Messiah and the High Priest killed him. imitate me.. . He has Masters degrees in Biblical Exposition and Old Testament from Talbot School of Theology (BIOLA) and a PhD in New Testament from Andrews University. For Rabbi Saul, the idea that the messiah could be killed is wrong but is it enough to account for a violent reaction like Acts 7 and the stoning of Stephen? The first thing was that they might be with Him personally, together, for His entire earthly ministry, from the time of John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven. I dont have any position or influence in the Christian world. I am not sure you can compare Pauls education to a modern one. How many years did Paul come after Jesus? That means open your Bible and be specific. (Soon, in the Logos Library!) As an athlete and sports enthusiast, the references really stuck out to me and are passages of scripture that I have read multiple times. Since I am teaching through Paul and his Letters again this fall, I thought I would revisit that older post and provide some additional thoughts on Gamaliel as background for reading Paul. N. T. Wright describes the Shammaite Pharisee as a militant hard-liner that was not willing to work with Rome as long as they could study the Torah, as Hillel had said (What Saint Paul Really Said, 26). They make Paul the center, not Jesus. Perhaps on the basis of a preserved tradition that he oversaw the body of St. Stephen. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. I almost wonder if his upbringing had anything to do with the way that he thought and he acted towards Christians. Obviously, the New Testament Scriptures were not written when Jesus was walking the earth. three years His claim before . Note also that there were more than one Rabbi named Gamaliel. If one lies and is decieved that it somehow abounds to Gods glory, that lying isnt a sin ESPECIALLY where God is concerned, what WONT they lie about? What you consider mainsteam Judaism is nothing like the previous sects of Judaism and infact evolved after the temple was destroyed. It is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from Johns baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. I think they are both wrong, because of Ephesians 2:15 and Matthew 5:17-20, among other Scripture passages Can you help to bring harmony in the Bride of Christ? But he certainly does not handle the NT very well from what I have read. If we need a man or a group of men to interpret the Word for us, that would make it a revelation that needs to be revealed. Well then, I will stop responding to you since you are not interested in learning anything which does not conform to your already-made-up mind. I dont see specifically that Paul trained leaders of house churches to carry on the work after he left- but maybe Im missing something. I agree that the teaching of Gamaliel did influence his life and was the foundation of his ministry because he is a Talmudim from that school. Im sorry that Christians cant come to grips in their confirmation bias that both Yeshua and Pauls ministries was infact Judaism. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. According to Josephus (Life 38.190-191), Gamaliel belonged to "a highly respected family"; there is no good reason to reject the early Jewish tradition that he was the grandson (or perhaps . Paul = "little". Perhaps you can contribute some insight? He uses these references quite often throughout many of his books in the NT. If you think Im wrong, Jesus commands you (Matthew chapter 18) to show me my fault. The character and position of his father. Did paul study under gamaliel? The leaders of the various house churches, Apollos by name, perhaps Chloes household is another church. The answer to that question is, they have been listening to the voice of Paul, rather than the voices of Jesus and the Original Apostles. As has been said multiple times above, it is fairly common for a pupil to break off from his teachers opinion. If you continue to post long rambling and inaccurate responses I will ban you from the site. The New Testament was not written nor codified till well after both Yeshua and Shaul were gone. Paul is the model pastor for many modern Pauls like; a) Bob Coy, who still owns all the assets and controls all the money at his cult known as Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, in spite of his recent resignation as Senior Pastor there due to adultery with multiple woman and other major sins that he still has never specifically admitted to personally. (11). Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Just because Paul disagreed with Gamaliel on one tiny aspect hes therefore a from the school Shammi? First, Gamaliel was one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Last Update: October 15, 2022. No it is true and I do know what im talking about since ive been a Yeshiva student for years and learning under well versed Orthodox and Messianic Rabbis. I agree, It does make sense a Pharisee would be expected to be married, though. If I were a missionary to England, I would certainly want to learn all I could about football, tea, and Doctor Who. he wouldn't just give it all up on a whim, especially not to be jailed, flogged, persecuted, and executed for it. They all make Paul and his teachings the one absolute standard of right and wrong, rather than Gods commandments and the testimony of Jesus. But i am just speculating here. In regards to Gamaliel, based off of Acts 5:35-40, he seemed to be a wise teacher. brought up . Study sets, textbooks, questions. Although he was born in Tarsus in Cilicia, Paul spent a considerable amount of time in Jerusalem under the tutelage of Gamaliel in the strict manner of the law of the Jews (Acts 22:3). The sentence begins with So in the NIV and Amplified Bibles, and Therefore in the NASB and King James Bibles, which ties 7:12 to the previous sentences. Ill have to change the names on these 12 chalkboards hundreds of times in the next couple of millennia. Good question, although in Acts Gamaliel is more lenient than Paul with respect to the followers of Jesus. No one. Gamaliel. Who was Gamaliel in the Bible? Lets see. Thanks also for your series on New Perspectives. In 2019 he published a commentary. In my reading, it would seem that many doubt the claim that one as zealous as Paul could not have sat at the feet of Gamaliel. The sect were known as Nazarites or Netzrim and in later writings Messianics. If he didnt have the teaching and influence then he wouldnt of had such a bold and confidence approach when speaking to other people. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. Supposition isnt the problem. However I do travel to Dallas for Shavuot to visit one of Messianic Rabbis down there. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. It isnt a question of mens opinions about what Paul really meant or what Paul must have known or what Paul was actually referring to here or what Paul was clearly implying or what we must conclude that Paul was assuming, etc. Second, Tarsus also exposed Paul to different cultures. To Paul, Christianity was dangerous, and to his Jewish thinking, very wrong. Nave's Topical Index. I would like to check that reference if possible. The people who Paul persecuted were diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that he was raised from the dead. One syllable, beginning with a consonant. etc. Thanks for the pointer. I am not at all sure you have read my article accurately, nor really spent much time on this site reading the things I post here. ), STEP 3) Paul said; All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. [Romans 3:23] (Response- Again the same question; What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? Being in his mid-range teens allows for plenty of time for Pauls family to teach him the strict conservative Jewish ways that he often brings up. But Pauls teachings drive one up the wall. As Gamaliels Christianity is attested in the Clementine Literature, one may, with care, posit an early date for the tradition. . Sometimes, Paul was wrong. You who were formerly known as gentiles. FWIW, the name is spelled Ron Moseley. The Bible says clearly that Paul in his words said he was a Paharisee and he that he sat under the teachings of Gamaliel. I regularly answer your lengthy and off topic responses. You are extremely insulting to me when you ignore what was written and only hear what your own prejudice allows. He is so nonsensical in his opinion and claims that one never reads his Epistles in full without thinking, Is he for real?. He was raised in a Jewish society and home because everyone in the entire New Testament are Jews (or converts) who followed Torah. That is absolutely incorrect. So we know that he is a Pharisee, is part of the Sanhedrin, and taught the man who would eventually pen the majority of the New Testament. Quick question (not one of my posts), was Paul around/among those that put Jesus to death?? Dr. If the mere thought of questioning Pauline Doctrine or Pauls truthfulness ruffles your feathers, its a sign that Pauls rotten spiritual fruit has taken root in your life. Belivers in Yeshua adhered to Lev, 23 and worshipped on the true shabbat. Jesus spoke the 3 chapters of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7, including 7:12. To date, there is either historical nor tradional evidence to support Sauls presence. The Apostle Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture, not All Scripture, and no its not the same thing at all. Later, when Im at the height of my career, and Im financially secure and I dont have to worry about finding a job or keeping my job, and I have some real influence- maybe 40 years from now, when Im, like, in my sixties, say in around 2013- thats when Ill really be able to stand up for Jesus. (Eastern Orthodox). .b) What about the so-called Great Commission? Silence since March now its June. Gamaliel and his beliefs seem to have a fairly large impact on Paul and his theology. Paul wrote: The entire law is summed up in a SINGLE command: Love your neighbor as yourself. [Galatians 5:14, Leviticus 19:18], And again, Paul wrote: He who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. And one throne for that other guy named Peter. Do you have a Biblical basis for your response? You are so far from understanding anything I have ever said it is humorous, actual insulting. Why is it so hard to give a straight answer to this simple question? One hint is the resistance to Pauline Christianity by both Second Temple Judaism and more conservative Jewish Christians like James.Most scholars of the period talk about early Judaisms, plural, since there was in fact a range of practice and belief in the first century. You do not know what my background or what ive read. Phillip J. Jesus never calls us out For what we used to be. If the LORD Yahweh, and His Son Yeshua the Jewish Messiah is God, follow Him; but if Paal is God, follow him. This is more accurate, important, and authoritative than personal letters written by Paul the Pharisee, who never knew Jesus personally, had no part in His ministry, and had no eyewitness testimony. :the character and position of his father; his own early training in a Grecian city; and his subsequent training under Gamaliel at Jerusalem. Like a little squirrel dressed up As a flying superhero We give ourselves the Title And zoom around the atmosphere Oh! mercer county, pa public records; facts about the roman . Taken directly from Talmud. Here, Paul explicitly wrote that he was in these regions. Paul did a much better job of marketing himself, and he wrote about himself hundreds of times. This is a matter of defining ones terms. But it wasnt worth mentioning to anyone in the first century, except the alleged mention of Jesus brother of James who is called Christ, since Chrestos means good it probably is saying James who is called Righteous One and not mentioning Christ or indicating Messiah by saying Christ. Polhil states that perhaps around the age of fourteen to sixteen Paul went to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), (30). He was an expert in the law. Paul, (Timothy1:1) Jesus said, "Ye must be born again" to? and as long as the food was not sacrificed to idols and was kosher you could eat with gentiles. Rather than the many trails of supposition. But Ive branched out into quite a few other books of the New Testament, and some Old Testament as well as frequent book reviews. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. Which is why he had to go to Sinai (which is in current day Saudi Arabia). You said that your QUOTE Quran is incorruptible. Thats like many Christians saying the Bible is inerrant. Muhammad is to Muslims as Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to most Catholics an idol that they worship, practically speaking. According to Polhill there were many individual groups in First century Judaism before the war of 66-70 The different groups had much in common But each had its own combination of characteristics (Polhill 28). Clearly youve never taken hebrew or greek in your life. All Jews were Hellenized to some extent, perhaps Paul made more use of Hellenisitic categories after the Damascus Road, but as a citizen of Tarsus it is impossible for him to be completely and solely Jewish in his thinking. Mainstream Judaism resistance to Paul isnt a sign of absolute proof that he wasnt a student of Hillel. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about A.D. 6 at the earliest. Several people objected that it does not really matter who Pauls human teachers were, after his conversion experience he was taught by the Holy Spirit. That is incorrect. [Acts 18}, .5) Paul acting as an abusive absentee overseer / pastor to the Church in Corinth years after he abandoned them, and clinging to all power and claim to control of money and all aspects of the church ministry, while he was hundreds of miles away teaching full-time in his own school in Ephesus. If Christianity means people who follow Jesus as messiah and savior then there is Christianity, beginning with Jewish followers of Jesus and moving out to the Gentiles through the Pauline mission. One special person, alone, with special words, and a special title, who could never be WRONG. Jesus did not see even the Hebrew Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament, as a whole unit or book that was all equal or all truly Gods words. Jesus spoke of The Law, or The Law and the Prophets, holding these 2 sections of the Old Testament above the third, least important sections the Writings. And Jesus held the Psalms, the first book of the Writings section, above the other books in the Writings section in importance, since some parts of some Psalms are prophetic. What Jesus clearly and specifically said is also superior and more important than your opinions about what you think Jesus meant or implied, but didnt say elsewhere. I wrote a short note on Pauls relationship with Gamaliel two years ago and it has been one of the more popular posts on Reading Acts. A scribe would be among the most highly educated in Judaism, and since at the feet of Gamaliel implies a mentoring relationship, it seems to me that a near-equivalent would be a serious specialized Masters Program, if not a PhD. Benjamin was a euphemism for Herodian Jew btw so Pharisee or not Paul was loyal to Herod, his friend was foster brother of Herod the tetrarch or Herod something, but Herod. God has not changed, and neither has the text of The Bible. We cannot work on assumption that Paul was different to what the book of Acts says. The Lord Our God is ONE God Greatest Commandment according to the Messiah (p). Gamaliel is reported to have offered somewhat lenient advice concerning the early preaching of the apostles in Acts 5:34-39. Paul has already been briefly mentioned in Acts in Chapters 7 and 8, in connection with the stoning of Stephen. Last Weeks Reading: Evangelicals, Water, and the Theology of Paul New Ways Forward, http://readingacts.com/2013/09/09/paul-and-gamaliel/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGS_V5mEOG4, Romans, Part 57 | The Gospel and the Religious Mind, https://unashamedofjesus.org/2016/05/31/greatest-commandment/#comment-5642, https://wonderfulgraceofjesus.wordpress.com/2017/03/08/the-commandments-of-jesus/#comment-120, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t-OzhlmvE, Pauls Jewish Heritage (Philippians 3:4-6) | Reading Acts, What Kind of Jew was Paul?
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